We don't live in ancient Hellas
Nov. 9th, 2006 09:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kyreneWe don't live in ancient Hellas. We will never truly and fully comprehend the mindset of someone living in ancient Hellas. None of us were raised in that culture nor would any of us conceive of living in the sorts of conditions that people in ancient times lived under.
Someone on the lists recently made the amusing remark that they really, truly do comprehend the ancient paradigm. I find this attitude to be naive at best and delusional at worst. While this person was rambling about how much they, like, really understood how the ancients thought, I heard Bill Shatner in my head:
She came from Greece,
she had a thirst for knowledge.
She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College.
That's where I caught her eye.
She told me that her Dad was loaded.
I said, in that case I'll have a rum and coca-cola.
She said fine, and in thirty seconds time she said,
I want to live like common people.
I want to do whatever common people do.
I want to sleep with common people.
I want to sleep with common people, like you.
Well, what else could I do?
I said, I'll see what I can do.
I took her to a supermarket.
I don't know why, but I had to
start it somewhere, so it started there.
I said, pretend you've got no money.
She just laughed, and said
oh you're so funny. I said, yeah?
Well, I can't see anyone else smiling in here.
Are you sure you want to live like common people?
You want to see whatever common people see?
You want to sleep with common people?
You want to sleep with common people, like me?
But, she didn't understand,
[Jackson]
She just smiled and held my hand.
Rent a flat above a shop.
Cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool.
Pretend you never went to school.
But still, you'll never get it right.
When you're lying in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you called your Dad he could stop it all.
Yeah.
[Shatner]
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do.
You'll never fail like common people.
You'll never watch your life slide out of view,
and dance and drink and screw
[Jackson and Shatner]
because there's nothing else to do.
[Shatner and Chorus]
Sing along with the common people.
Sing along, and it might just get you thru.'
[Chorus]
Laugh along with the common people.
[Shatner and Chorus]
Laugh along, even though they're laughing at you
[Shatner]
and the stupid things that you do
'cause you think that poor is cool.
[Jackson]
Like a dog lying in a corner,
they'll bite you and never warn you.
Look out.
[Shatner]
They'll tear your insides out
'cause everybody hates a tourist.
[Jackson]
'Cause Everybody hates a tourist,
especially one who thinks
it's all such a laugh.
[Shatner]
Yeah, and the chip stains' grease
will come out in the bath.
[Shatner and Jackson]
You will never understand
how it feels to live your life
with no meaning or control
and with nowhere left to go.
You're amazed that they exist
and they burn so bright,
while you can only wonder why.
Rent a flat above a shop.
Cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool.
Pretend you never went to school.
But still, you'll never get it right.
'Cause When you're lying in bed at night
[Shatner]
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you called your Dad he could stop it all.
Yeah.
You'll never live like common people
[Shatner and Jackson]
You'll never do what common people do.
You'll never fail like common people.
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
and dance and drink and screw
because there's nothing else to do.
[Chorus]
I want to sing with common people, like you.
I want to sing with common people, like you.
I want to sing with common people, like you.
We'll never know what it's like to never have access to a supermarket, the Internet, cars, technology, or be able to think outside of the culture in which we were raised. Sure you can drop yourself off in the middle of the woods but at any time you can head back to your SUV and head to Starbucks where you can drink your mocha latte and post silly statements on emailing lists using their Wi-Fi connection about how much you, like, totally get the ancient mindset.
You can turn reconstructionism into a bullshit religious version of the SCA complete with garb and replicas of ancient Greek drinking cups to make your "totally ancient" reproduction of a Greek religious rite complete, but let's face it, you bought that replica on eBay and your garb from Joann's Fabrics.
We live in the 21st century. It's not a bad place to be, so deal. I mean, let's face it, if you live in the States and you're a woman you actually have RIGHTS. Most women didn't have those in ancient times except in a few places such as Sparta--and you didn't want to live in Sparta, trust me:
SPARTA: In ancient Sparta, the purpose of education was to produce a well-drilled, well-disciplined marching army. Spartans believed in a life of discipline, self-denial, and simplicity. They were very loyal to the state of Sparta. Every Spartan, male or female, was required to have a perfect body. When babies were born in ancient Sparta, Spartan soldiers would come by the house and check the baby. If the baby did not appear healthy and strong, the infant was taken away, and left to die on a hillside, or taken away to be trained as a slave (a helot). Babies who passed this examination were assigned membership in a brotherhood or sisterhood, usually the same one to which their father or mother belonged.
Sounds totally cool, doesn't it? I bet you pro-lifers out there are positively cringing at that paragraph.
Oh, and here's about what happened to their women:
Spartan Girls: In Sparta, girls also went to school at age 6 or 7. They lived, slept and trained in their sisterhood's barracks. No one knows if their school was as cruel or as rugged as the boys school, but the girls were taught wrestling, gymnastics and combat skills. Some historians believe the two schools were very similar, and that an attempt was made to train the girls as thoroughly as they trained the boys. In any case, the Spartans believed that strong young women would produce strong babies.
At age 18, if a Sparta girl passed her skills and fitness test, she would be assigned a husband and allowed to return home. If she failed, she would lose her rights as a citizen, and became a perioikos, a member of the middle class. In most of the other Greek city-states, women were required to stay inside their homes most of their lives. In Sparta, citizen women were free to move around, and enjoyed a great deal of freedom, as their husbands did not live at home.
(http://hometown.aol.com/donnclass/Greeklife.html)
Sounds like a great place to live, huh gals? Pack your bags and set your time machine!
We should be DAMNED thankful that we don't comprehend the ancient mindset, which included the idea that women were either second rate pieces of property to be owned by men or had to pass skills and fitness tests (which I doubt ANY of you couch-potato Net-posters can pass, with few exceptions) so that they could keep their rights, where slavery was considered to be a-ok, and human sacrifice at one point was practiced.
So don't babble about how much you comprehend the ancient mindset--because you only look like an moron when you do.
Someone on the lists recently made the amusing remark that they really, truly do comprehend the ancient paradigm. I find this attitude to be naive at best and delusional at worst. While this person was rambling about how much they, like, really understood how the ancients thought, I heard Bill Shatner in my head:
She came from Greece,
she had a thirst for knowledge.
She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College.
That's where I caught her eye.
She told me that her Dad was loaded.
I said, in that case I'll have a rum and coca-cola.
She said fine, and in thirty seconds time she said,
I want to live like common people.
I want to do whatever common people do.
I want to sleep with common people.
I want to sleep with common people, like you.
Well, what else could I do?
I said, I'll see what I can do.
I took her to a supermarket.
I don't know why, but I had to
start it somewhere, so it started there.
I said, pretend you've got no money.
She just laughed, and said
oh you're so funny. I said, yeah?
Well, I can't see anyone else smiling in here.
Are you sure you want to live like common people?
You want to see whatever common people see?
You want to sleep with common people?
You want to sleep with common people, like me?
But, she didn't understand,
[Jackson]
She just smiled and held my hand.
Rent a flat above a shop.
Cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool.
Pretend you never went to school.
But still, you'll never get it right.
When you're lying in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you called your Dad he could stop it all.
Yeah.
[Shatner]
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do.
You'll never fail like common people.
You'll never watch your life slide out of view,
and dance and drink and screw
[Jackson and Shatner]
because there's nothing else to do.
[Shatner and Chorus]
Sing along with the common people.
Sing along, and it might just get you thru.'
[Chorus]
Laugh along with the common people.
[Shatner and Chorus]
Laugh along, even though they're laughing at you
[Shatner]
and the stupid things that you do
'cause you think that poor is cool.
[Jackson]
Like a dog lying in a corner,
they'll bite you and never warn you.
Look out.
[Shatner]
They'll tear your insides out
'cause everybody hates a tourist.
[Jackson]
'Cause Everybody hates a tourist,
especially one who thinks
it's all such a laugh.
[Shatner]
Yeah, and the chip stains' grease
will come out in the bath.
[Shatner and Jackson]
You will never understand
how it feels to live your life
with no meaning or control
and with nowhere left to go.
You're amazed that they exist
and they burn so bright,
while you can only wonder why.
Rent a flat above a shop.
Cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool.
Pretend you never went to school.
But still, you'll never get it right.
'Cause When you're lying in bed at night
[Shatner]
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you called your Dad he could stop it all.
Yeah.
You'll never live like common people
[Shatner and Jackson]
You'll never do what common people do.
You'll never fail like common people.
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
and dance and drink and screw
because there's nothing else to do.
[Chorus]
I want to sing with common people, like you.
I want to sing with common people, like you.
I want to sing with common people, like you.
We'll never know what it's like to never have access to a supermarket, the Internet, cars, technology, or be able to think outside of the culture in which we were raised. Sure you can drop yourself off in the middle of the woods but at any time you can head back to your SUV and head to Starbucks where you can drink your mocha latte and post silly statements on emailing lists using their Wi-Fi connection about how much you, like, totally get the ancient mindset.
You can turn reconstructionism into a bullshit religious version of the SCA complete with garb and replicas of ancient Greek drinking cups to make your "totally ancient" reproduction of a Greek religious rite complete, but let's face it, you bought that replica on eBay and your garb from Joann's Fabrics.
We live in the 21st century. It's not a bad place to be, so deal. I mean, let's face it, if you live in the States and you're a woman you actually have RIGHTS. Most women didn't have those in ancient times except in a few places such as Sparta--and you didn't want to live in Sparta, trust me:
SPARTA: In ancient Sparta, the purpose of education was to produce a well-drilled, well-disciplined marching army. Spartans believed in a life of discipline, self-denial, and simplicity. They were very loyal to the state of Sparta. Every Spartan, male or female, was required to have a perfect body. When babies were born in ancient Sparta, Spartan soldiers would come by the house and check the baby. If the baby did not appear healthy and strong, the infant was taken away, and left to die on a hillside, or taken away to be trained as a slave (a helot). Babies who passed this examination were assigned membership in a brotherhood or sisterhood, usually the same one to which their father or mother belonged.
Sounds totally cool, doesn't it? I bet you pro-lifers out there are positively cringing at that paragraph.
Oh, and here's about what happened to their women:
Spartan Girls: In Sparta, girls also went to school at age 6 or 7. They lived, slept and trained in their sisterhood's barracks. No one knows if their school was as cruel or as rugged as the boys school, but the girls were taught wrestling, gymnastics and combat skills. Some historians believe the two schools were very similar, and that an attempt was made to train the girls as thoroughly as they trained the boys. In any case, the Spartans believed that strong young women would produce strong babies.
At age 18, if a Sparta girl passed her skills and fitness test, she would be assigned a husband and allowed to return home. If she failed, she would lose her rights as a citizen, and became a perioikos, a member of the middle class. In most of the other Greek city-states, women were required to stay inside their homes most of their lives. In Sparta, citizen women were free to move around, and enjoyed a great deal of freedom, as their husbands did not live at home.
(http://hometown.aol.com/donnclass/Greeklife.html)
Sounds like a great place to live, huh gals? Pack your bags and set your time machine!
We should be DAMNED thankful that we don't comprehend the ancient mindset, which included the idea that women were either second rate pieces of property to be owned by men or had to pass skills and fitness tests (which I doubt ANY of you couch-potato Net-posters can pass, with few exceptions) so that they could keep their rights, where slavery was considered to be a-ok, and human sacrifice at one point was practiced.
So don't babble about how much you comprehend the ancient mindset--because you only look like an moron when you do.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 03:02 pm (UTC)It's like syncretism. They bang the table all the time over this. It's a fiction. The reality was more like "What do you call Zeus? Oh cool. How do you worship him? Hmmm, that sounds interesting, we might include that." etc...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 03:08 pm (UTC)That's because most of them refuse to read anything that hasn't been written by some dusty academic who's been entirely too influenced by Christianity to write a thoroughly balanced look at the ancient world--not to mention that they are more interested in reporting cold facts than they are a genuine, human portrayal.
To use them in order to recreate a religion would be like using the movie Stigmata in combination with a world history text to recreate Christianity two thousand years down the road--and not many seem to get this!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 03:12 pm (UTC)Illiad
is
a
fewking
storybook.
Not a bible.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 03:12 pm (UTC)Thank you.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 03:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:03 pm (UTC)Its a bit like the interesting correspondences the Hellenistics made between the Olympians and the Amesha Spentas...or the Netjer.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:31 pm (UTC)And it so amuses me when the "recon hard polytheists" squeal and moan and go nuts whenever this is brought up. Omgs we are closet Christians/monotheists/Wiccans/neopagans/fluffy bunnies burn us all!!!11eleventy-one
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:37 pm (UTC)Its very amusing to see them claim to be "oh so scholarly" and totally miss this blatantly obvious element.
Its a bit like the pomposity of some Goths I knew who wailed about the 'stench of humanity' which their poison rings filled with incense was to cover. Feh.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:39 pm (UTC)And ditto on everything you said and then some.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 07:35 pm (UTC)Well, I might've liked combat training in school. :-) But I don't have the discipline or blind, sheep like respect for authority to have survived in a place like that. And then there's the whole assigned a husband and having babies thing... ew!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-09 07:51 pm (UTC)But yeah, no matter how you slice it, those were harsh times that they lived in, and there's just no real comparison between then and now.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:03 pm (UTC)I've offered you intro sword lessons more times than I could count!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:09 pm (UTC)...
Oh wait, those don't count...
...
;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:04 pm (UTC)heh. This really torques me off.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:12 pm (UTC)Of course, men had to pass those fitness tests too,..
No, I like the 21st Century, and I don't doubt that if you take the way back machine, and showed them our world, that you would have a huge immigration flood to the modern world from then. Things were hard, even the richest city state was poorer than a modern Third World Country. While they eventually reached the Renaissance in terms of science and technology, the renaissance, pace the SCA and the Ren Faires, was not a picnic either. Look at the infant mortality, and life expectancy rates! I was born premature, and had a hard enough time surviving in the 20th century after birth. If my mom lived back then, she would have died in childbirth, and I would have not survived either.
I thank the Gods constantly that I was able to be born now.
I respect the ancients, and I learn from them as much as I can. But I can't understand them fully. Only because I have lived inthe Third World do I have any remote concept of what life was then. I study them for their insights, and their innovations, and agree with a lot of what they said in terms of virtues, and duty, and honor. But not everything is worth reconstructing.
Even though it might be some guy's fantasies to be a male in Athens...they'd still not like the lack of sanitation, medical care, the constant malnutrition, the short life expectancy, etc. I'll take my 21st Century.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:17 pm (UTC)I believe that people get born for a reason. Not everyone reincarnates, and some of us just hang around, on the astral somewhere, and that's it. And it kinda suffices for a second life but lacks the impact and OOPHM of the physical.
But this is woo-woo. Let me get to the point. I do not believe that we incarnate without a purpose, a meaning, or a definition, and I believe that it all varies accorrding to who and what we all. Some of us went the first, second, third, or 1,000th time around in the past and got to live that life in ancient Greece, one of many or just one. Others are just drawn for differen reasons valid to only them and their unique, indvidual, true soul. In the end, I don't think it matters and regardless of where we all wind up, we'll go where we belong.
And if ancient Greece is a part of that, so be it. If not, does it really, truly matter?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:31 pm (UTC)Now I have had strange dreams as a child that I can't quite explain, which imply a past life or two in ancient Hellas.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-10 08:35 pm (UTC)I find it hard to reconcile the idea of "believing in" things which have found to be true for myself in my own experience. Does it really require belief, or a theory or two? I'm with the theory.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 12:12 am (UTC)I think there's something to be said for examining contemporary culture and what it has to offer to magicians.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 12:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 01:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 01:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 02:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 01:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-13 02:40 am (UTC)